ihath

I guess as an American, I have a different take on it. I think Ahenakew should be stripped of his Senate seat and his Order of Canada, but I strongly oppose a fine for hate speech. Should he be condemned? Yes. Should he be ostracized? Yes. Is he a disgrace? Yes. Should he be fined or punished legally? No. I find hate speech laws and hate crime laws a threat agianst the marketplace of ideas, and by banning despicable speech today, what we say will be illegal tommorrow.

Denmark's cartoon is snide and I view Mohammed as a great man who does not deserve such nasty attacks (now Mohammed Atta is fair game), plus I have a certain admiration for merchants, intellectuals, and warriors, which the Prophet Mohammed was all three. While the cartoonist definitely deservs criticism, I fully support their right to free speech.

Besides, if one kind of cartoon is banned, then there would be laws against cartoons mocking Steve Harper and his Protestant faith, or Paul Martin and the Libranos, or cartoons making fun of George W Bush.

Now, I can understand your anguish as I am nolonger Catholic, but I still bristle a bit at jokes aimed at my faith, the Virgin Mary, or priests.

As dearly as I love you, I will disagree with you on this manner, as I believe that even the worst forms of speech should be allowed, while we can exercise our free speech condmening them.

Besides, Canada still has a hateful and disgusting day like Orangeman's Day, and that is within a legislature's right to abolish. I still believe in the right of Canadian Protestants to march and harrass Catholics, as I support the right of Catholics in Canada to refuse business dealings or commerce with known Orangemen.

But even though I do not share your view on this issue, I will hug you while you cry.    

hello, i surf around and i found your blog.. it's really interesting! full of opinions.. yea i agree to some extend about the cartoon and the stuff u wrote about    

AMEN. I know how you feel.    

Muslims blindly worship a murderous pedophile. The world is finding out about this peaceful religion. It's going to make the news... more and more.
We all must become Muslim or die. A sick cult!    

Dear Ihath,

I read that the cartoons were published back in Sept., and that these cartoons plus a few worse ones were presented in docs distributed to Muslim leaders months later by certain Islamic campaigners. These unfortunate and violent protests are not spontaneous, but were planned well in advance by folks with an agenda. See Fabricated Cartoons.

I suppose since the press are normally controlled by the governments in Islamic countries, the Islamists assume the same is true in the West?

My current understanding is that the protesting Muslims are today being used by people going after more power for themselves. How much interest they have in the spiritual progress of Muslims remains to be seen.

Unfortunately, the seemingly large and violent protests around the world only appear to "prove" to Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, Confucian and Agnostics/Aetheists that the majority of Muslims are as violent as their prophet was protrayed in the now famous cartoons.

In the non-Islamic world, movies, tv shows, plays, paintings, sculptures of Christ Jesus as a sexually perverted, dunked in urine, drug addict result in letters to the Editor and other forms of peaceful protest. It was not always that way, but that's how it has been for my decades at least. No hostages taken, no buildings burned, no death threats (on any significant scale -- there's always a mentally deranged nutcase somewhere).

President Bush says that Islam is a "religion of peace and love." Some folks want us to not believe that and want us to attack Islam. Unfortunately, they found some cartoons published a few months ago in a newspaper that nobody reads, and they were able to manipulate them into a worldwide anti-West campaign. Good for them. Some editors saw this as an attack on free speech (the right to dunk prophets in urine shall not be abridged), and reacted as childishly and naively as the protesting Muslims. The image of Islam in the West is worse, and the image of the West in Islam is worse. Good for them. I hope all the children are feeling better now. A few more cartoons have been published, and a few more embassies have been burned.

And Maxine, if we see a few heads chopped off or a few nuclear bombs dropped on Iran as this campaign continues, I won't be desiring any popcorn for a while. I'll be sick to my stomach while I pray for sanity to be given to all who are proudly acting insane.

Here is a famous prayer of Christ: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." It should be applied liberally by all sides in this case.

Later...    

Wonderful point of view.
"Free speech" doesn't exist.
It used as political construct
when things need to be justifyed..
or somebody' point of view needs to be self indulged.
The are two comments in Republican
radioequalizer and democratic Huffinghton Post referring
Ihath.com    

Wonderful point of view.
"Free speech" doesn't exist.
It used as political construct
when things need to be justifyed..
or somebody' point of view needs to be self indulged.
The are two comments in Republican
radioequalizer and democratic Huffinghton Post referring
Ihath.com    

Dear Ihath,

This young man sets a good example for all:

A man who dressed as a suicide bomber during a protest about cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad has apologised for his behaviour

Later...    

Dear Ihath,

FOOD FIGHT!!!

Iran's largest selling newspaper has announced it is holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

Maxine, more popcorn please.

Later...    

Dear Ihath,

To turn the other cheek, or not?

These Muslims show how to do it:
We Are Sorry

This ex-Muslim says no:
Everyone is afraid to criticize Islam

Later...    

Scott Burgess 'fisking' of Fisk Scott' at http://dailyablution.blogs.com/the_daily_ablution/2006/02/fisk_in_a_barre.html    

Dear Maxine,

The party has begun to end. I know, this means the fun will end too, but sooner or later they would figure it out anyway:

Cartoons of the Prophet: A Pitfall Trap

Later...    

Ihath

I have seen about a year ago caricatures of Jesus, Moses and other figures in some middle eastern press (some were published in Iranian press, some in Saudi Arabia). At that time,I did not like it, as they were neither funny nor have any kind of message behind them, but thought nothing about it. Hovewer now I found that your religion prohibits caricatures not only of prophet Muhhamad but also of other prophets. Don't you think that there is a double standart. You (muslems) can publish caricatures radiculing Jewish and Christian religion however we (people of other religions) are prohibited from publishing caricatures of your prophet.
Could you explain that?

Confused    

Dear Confused,

Christ Jesus taught us to do to others what we would like others to do to ourselves, IOW, love your neighbor as yourself.

"We in the West want Muslim leaders to condemn the racial and religious prejudices that are so widespread in the Muslim world. Let us lead by example." (quote from Reza Aslan in this Slate article)

Later...    

I think the cartoons where illegal, they in my opinion where in beach of Section 140 of the Criminal Code which "prohibits any person from publicly ridiculing or insulting the dogmas of worship of any lawfully existing religious community in Denmark".... and Section 266b which "criminalises the dissemination of statements or other information by which a group of people are threatened, insulted or degraded on account of their religion."

In my opinion the paper should receive a big big fine.

On the other hand, the Muslims had no right for such violent protests. The placards where particularly uncalled for and extremely illegal. Just because it is normal to be fanatical of religion in Islamic law does not give anyone the right to try impose such oppression on other cultures. Unfortunately I must say that I find the reaction and protests much more disgraceful then the cartoon.

Still I would not publish the cartoons on my blog or website ( http://www.embarrassingstories.mzarb.com )    

On some points we agree, and others we don't. While I think anonymous there trolling your blog is an utter utter wordscannotconveywithanycivilitywhatIwoulddliketocallhim
I shall turn the other cheek on him/it and return to the reply to your post I was going to make. Funnily enough, though I condemn the cartoons (for many reasons including eery resonance with pre-WWII anti-semitism) I would not call the republishing of them "hate" so much as utter utter stupidity. I suspect the Danes hadn't any idea what they were doing. They really, did not know. I even came across one on some other blog someplace saying he had hoped at the time that it might "engage muslims in dialogue". What do I think? I think a man must have made the decision to publish the cartoons - it's typical boys-school behaviour. They just go about rucking each other up to "get a response" because it's the only form of communication they know, where as women are an infinitely superior species and have a few more smarts where ideas exchange is concerned. Plus, all the people out on the streets burning up flags and embassies in retaliation are, from what I can tell, boys. Yes, I am certain, this is not about hate - it's about male idiocy.    

Dear Occassional Lady,

It might also be about hate for some folks. See We were brought up to hate - and we do.

Later...    

Nice post, good point, purely Canadian, the most open space in North America. I invite you to read my musings on Cartoongate. Thanks. Ibrahim

http://fromclay.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoongate-dj-vu-all-over-again.html    

Thank you. It is refreshing to know that I'm not the last Canadian with Canadian values.

Being 9th generation Canadian, I was raised that to show respect for others and their beliefs was the Canadian way.

The publishing or not publishing of these cartoons in Canada, in my opinion, have absolutely NOTHING to do with freedom of speech, but has EVERYTHING to do with Canadian values.

I have witnessed two interviews with the editor of Western Standards where he has shown his lack of knowledge regarding Canadian values. We do not call people names nor do we rudely interrupt and not allow others to finish what they are saying. Our journalists also do not quote others out of context as I have seen him do.

If that's the type of journalism he prefers, then I hope he does us all a huge favour, and takes it to the country where it belongs, because it most certainly does not belong here, in my Canada!    

I draw hope from the fact that in Canada we have evolved over time. We no longer find it acceptable to ridicule Jews, put down homosexuals or demean blacks in public discourse. Perhaps one day it won’t be acceptable to practice unrestraint free speech on Arabs and Muslims as well.


I think you are suffering from a common ailment in Canada: self-delusion. Surely the publishing of the cartoons by the Western Standard has shattered at least some of those illusions by firmly slapping you in the face. And don't count on the courts to help either: has Mr. Arar received justice yet?

Here is a useful link on the crisis, and how it got started:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/feb2006/denm-f10.shtml    

i agree ihath. how dare europeans mock people that wear white dresses and dance around like monkeys in the streets shooting their guns into the air. in my opinon, muslims are very useful to the world. it would be nice to put a huge fence around the middle east, then the normal people of the world could look through the cage into the muslim world and see how they interact with each other, like we do with animals at a zoo. that way we can study muslims without getting too close. when the muslims throw their feces at each other, normal people will be able to laugh and take pictures from a safe distance.    

Dear Maxine,

How do you do it? I love your multi-cultural popcorn.

"A Danish paper publishes a cartoon that mocks Muslims. An Iranian paper responds with a Holocaust cartoons contest -- Now a group of Israelis announce their own anti-Semitic cartoons contest!"

See Boomka.

My favorite line:

“We’ll show the world we can do the best, sharpest, most offensive Jew hating cartoons ever published!” said Sandy “No Iranian will beat us on our home turf!”

Later...    

I qoute
"I have seen about a year ago caricatures of Jesus, Moses and other figures in some middle eastern press (some were published in Iranian press, some in Saudi Arabia). At that time,I did not like it, as they were neither funny nor have any kind of message behind them, but thought nothing about it. Hovewer now I found that your religion prohibits caricatures not only of prophet Muhhamad but also of other prophets. Don't you think that there is a double standart. You (muslems) can publish caricatures radiculing Jewish and Christian religion however we (people of other religions) are prohibited from publishing caricatures of your prophet.
Could you explain that?

Confused"

I just can't understand why are you saying this? is it hatred?

listen my friend (may Allah (GOD) lead us both to the right path) I am a Saudi and I didn't like what you wrote here for one reason, the lies in there !!

I sware that you can't find a single saudi publication (not only news papers) that even critic (not publishing cartoons) about any prohpet ..... can you name the newspaper you say you saw the cartoons published at .....

notice that I said "I sware...." and I said so because I know how people think and I know what may happen if any body published what said the did...
for us Islam is not only a religion .... it is a way of life
this make me very sure no budy can make fun of a prophet :)    

I couldn't read all the comments but the most. I liked the link http://islamonline.net/English/Views/2006/02/article03.shtml, which the article is named "Cartoons of the Prophet: A Pitfall Trap" It is a good article, which as a Turkish-American and mulim woman I found fair and right at right points.
There is no excuse for the ridiculous protests or how much fundemantalism can go in freedom of speech. Yet the caricatures are anyway insulting and shows no knowledge or understanding of how muslim could grow into a more humanitarian religion like the christianity did. That the christians were not the defenders of humanity or the westerns weren't always the center of intellectual thinking.
I agree with the comments that Denmark muslims should not carry this issue to outside, but rather try to go with the institutions and use democratic tools as a part of the Denmark community. They should have a logical voice, like a good song, which could be listened and create some empathy that it is insulting to draw the prophet of a religion with a bomb at hand. It is not because of Mohammed that the Middle East politics, terrorism or the huge wall in Israel has come to this point. This would be like pointing Nietzche and saying that he cause the racism in Germany. This would be nonsense. Rather that many muslims can't find their places, and can't relate to the global images on tvs, the nudity or whatever. They can't bridge between their past values and the fast going changes in the world. They are always behind which creates frustration. And when you are young, excluded and frustrated, anywhere in the world, and whichever ethnicity or religion, or country, or social group, or economical group yo belong to, you just have your energy erupting in wrong places if you become manipulated without having any critical thinking.
It is not usually thought how to think critically, and how to look at different information sources. The self-thrust and knowing that you are important as a human being is not gained from birth or destroyed very easily. People who are poor, who are neglected so long, who does not have voice, who are excluded,, and never had seen the other way, can't look to the future with hope. They can't visualize it. And they don't know the "so called democratic ways of expression". They just feel something is wrong, they are trapped and just somebody appears to have them grouped in a gang or wherever in a bomb squat, or in a mob, and they are manipulated.
It is that easy,, if you are under pressure and pressure and you have no hope. It isn't a zoo that you can watch. Even many people can't stand to zoos, seeing how a wild animal can't run or fly freely. You are not in freedom when a big army is in your country who has these young boys that know nothing about your culture, language, anything. You can't negotiate with a man who holds a gun. Just you can't.
Fear causes lots of stuff.
I just wanna say that no way I think that terrorism right, but what I want to say is you can't fight terrorism or gangs of young people with the guns or police. It is just a fight on face. And if the reasons causing some groups of young people to remain excluded, frustrated and without hope keep continuing, you would have larger and worser gangs, or terrorist groups or crazy mobs more nad more.
Because no one, the religion, the ethnicity, the nationality or gender does not mather, no one wants to die in a gun shooting fight. No one likes harassment.

Just we need more light in some neighborhoods of the world. More options for young people that they can get out their mud holes and by time turn around and be strong enough to create some place more habitable. Maybe than democracy can flourish in some places with more education, institutions and (sustainable) development.

Tuba Ari.    

Forgive me if i am wrong, but dont your own clerics instigate to kill people in the name of religion? Doesn’t the Inslamic Law itself ask to murder people who have converted from Islam to other religions? What kind of a religion is this which actually propagates killing and violence? People from other communities or religions also commit mass murders, rapes and other forms of violence, but i have yet to see a community like the Islamic community that blindly follows what the other fellow muslim is doing even if it be killing, burning buildings, or anything violent. Very religion says that theirs is the best but you Muslims are the worst by far. You people not only look down upon your fellow beings because they are non muslims but also force your religion down everyone's throat. You people are so bothered about technicalities like wearing a veil, saying the namaz five times and god know what all, but what about basic goodness? Yes, and as you say, the rest of the unIslamic world is evil, nudists, adulterers, drug dealers, but it aso has the largets number of human right activists, orphanages, homes, NGOs adn what not. Even when one muslim tries to do something good or raises his or her voice against opression heor she is mirdered or a fatwa is issued against him or her . If a muslim doenst want to participate in your so called "holy wars" and killing people or burning buildings, he is called him an infidel. Instead of teaching the true values of goodness and charity, your clerics teach that if you are a "good" muslim, you get to fuck 70 virgins in heaven!!!! Is this the basis of your religion and ideology??? and on top of that instead of looking at your won backyard and struggling to bring in education, health and equality, your muslim leaders are more concerned whether the women are wearing veils or not, weather they are walking 2 steps behind men or not, whether muslims are saying their 5 times namaz or not, make sure that the convert is beheaded and the robber's hand is cut off or not even if he was just stealing bread, that adulterers are stoned in public..i mean what eunuchs are these who have to depend on these measures to ensure their popularity and what eunuchs are these community members who agree with all that all the violence and degradation of women in the name of violence.